Growth Trends and Adult Sizes: PI vs GT Adults

[Michael]

Hi All,

I have a few thoughts and questions around growth and size with chahoua, and I'd love to have your insight and help.

First, how much do your adult chahoua weigh on average, both for GT and PI individuals?

I calculated this years ago and came out with an average weight of 46g for my GT animals and 64g for my PIs. Over the years, I've had some oddballs: GTs who crested 60g and PIs who were as small as 45g and as large as 92g, but I feel like those numbers - 46g for GT and 64 for PI - still probably ring true.

That brings me to my next point: When do chahoua stop growing? Has anyone tracked lengths and weights over time to answer this question?

I haven't tracked the weights of my animals in more than 5 years now, and I wish I hadn't stopped. Since 2016, I've had some up and down seasons with reproduction and one of my goals this season was to make sure that my breeding adults were as well fed as possible. In 2018, I look back and feel like I could have fed more crickets, but the other parts of my life got away from me and I relied heavily on fruit diets. My production was not very good.

Since January, I've been feeding my geckos every 2-3 days on a schedule that goes something like this:
- Day 1: Ca dusted crickets
- Day 2: Nothing
- Day 3: Fruit diet
- Day 4: 2-day old fruit diet (left in the tank)
- Day 5: Nothing
- Day 6: Ca dusted Crickets
- Day 7: Fruit diet

... plus adding extra treats and feeder insects sprinkled in randomly: hornworms, wax worms, silk worms, etc.

This MIGHT SOUND CRAZY, but I swear that my adult geckos have gotten larger this year... both in terms of weight and length. I have geckos who are 5-8 years old who have been shedding every ~3 weeks since February, which is much more than I've ever seen my adults shed. I think part of this is definitely larger body mass from feeding, but I also feel like many of them "feel" a little longer and generally bigger.

If these geckos live to 20-30 years in captivity, I think it could be plausible that they grow for the first several years of their lives, though I originally thought most finished growing around 3 years old. Now, I have a feeling they might continue some less significant growth in years past that. You understand why I say that I wish I'd kept better records of weight and length and not stopped around ~2013.

So, first, does anyone have any data like I stopped keeping: weights and lengths into 4, 5, 6, 7+ years of age? If so, what does that data say? Second... does what I wrote above sound crazy?

 

[ArborealsAnonymous]

I am too tired to remember which research papers to link you to, but this isn't crazy at all. Its well documented that reptiles grow incrementally for the duration of their lives, though there is always an exponential growth rate for the young that gradually tapers off as the animal gains maturity. Its called an indeterminate growth pattern and is most well documented in fish. Its likely to be the original growth pattern of life which eutherian mammals have lost but marsupials and i believe monotremes still exhibit.

 

[Fairy tale geckos]

It`s interesting for me you are saying your aduld Pines are only around 64 grams. At moment I haven´t much adult Pines, but they are also around 65 grams for males and 75 grams for females. Always thought this isn`t the normal size in the hobby, becouse some people wondered if I told them why they are not bigger than that. And the breeders told me the parents were around 80-90 grams, hard to believe that when the offspring in my care only hit the 60 grams... Some people who asked me for my future pairings always asked for the weight and told me they will not buy an animal from a pairing with a male around 60 grams and female around 70 grams. So: Were are all the big Pines with 90 grams? And are breeded in captivity ones maybe smaller than wild catched ones? Sure it`s right they will grow the hole livetime a little bit, I only can say Auriculatus are still growing as adults. Therefore they still sheed as adults. But it`s not much. Only a few grams over some years...

 

[Michael]

I am too tired to remember which research papers to link you to, but this isn't crazy at all. Its well documented that reptiles grow incrementally for the duration of their lives, though there is always an exponential growth rate for the young that gradually tapers off as the animal gains maturity. Its called an indeterminate growth pattern and is most well documented in fish. Its likely to be the original growth pattern of life which eutherian mammals have lost but marsupials and i believe monotremes still exhibit.

It's funny you mention that because over the last few weeks, I've been thinking of some similar research. "I know this has been proven for other species, but I wonder how legitimate it is for chahoua?" Haha.

Oh well. I guess I should keep better records of my own, long term, so that I can find out.

It`s interesting for me you are saying your aduld Pines are only around 64 grams. At moment I haven´t much adult Pines, but they are also around 65 grams for males and 75 grams for females. Always thought this isn`t the normal size in the hobby, becouse some people wondered if I told them why they are not bigger than that. And the breeders told me the parents were around 80-90 grams, hard to believe that when the offspring in my care only hit the 60 grams... Some people who asked me for my future pairings always asked for the weight and told me they will not buy an animal from a pairing with a male around 60 grams and female around 70 grams. So: Were are all the big Pines with 90 grams? And are breeded in captivity ones maybe smaller than wild catched ones? Sure it`s right they will grow the hole livetime a little bit, I only can say Auriculatus are still growing as adults. Therefore they still sheed as adults. But it`s not much. Only a few grams over some years...

You make a great point... I think people often believe that "bigger is better" with these geckos, especially when they are related to Leachianus and are one of the largest gecko species on their own (I think Leachies, Tokays, Halmaheras, Chahoua and Trachys?). I've had a few PIs into the 70 gram category, but animals that crest 80 or 90g can be counted on one hand for me. Their size is truly impressive, but it's rare they get THAT large. My focus is always overall health and I think I feed my geckos generously. Even with that, most max out around 65-70g or a little less. I'm ok with it.

I hope some other folks chime in with the average sizes of their adults for reference.

Another point: During breeding seasons, weights can fluctuate 15g or more. Males often don't eat as much going into breeding season, and females spend considerable resources to produce and lay eggs, so getting a consistent weight can be rather hard, and that number is definitely subject to change.

 

[ArborealsAnonymous]

So I briefly had a pair of mainlands, and the female was about 45g and the male 50g at peak weights. Most of my pines are substantially larger, males at 60/65g and females 70/75g. I do have one gigantic male that is 70g at 10.5 months old and one gigantic female that is 85 grams or so. I only feed everybody who is over 20g 2x/week so its not a matter of making them fat.