Jalu vs. Chahoua, PI vs. GT, or are they all just "Mniarogekkos"?

[Andrea IGA]

Thanks! So in those photos you provided, which one is GT and which one PI?

PI on the right > sublabial front scale 2nd row is divided in 2 scales.

GT on the left > sublabial front scale 2nd row is single.

As I wrote NOT every PI I have show double scales, but no GT in my collection show the double scales.

 

[Canvas_geckos]

PI on the right > sublabial front scale 2nd row is divided in 2 scales.

GT on the left > sublabial front scale 2nd row is single.

As I wrote NOT every PI I have show double scales, but no GT in my collection show the double scales.

So based off of that theory, it looks like my female is likely PI, and not GT..I purchased her as a GT though, she came to me as an adult.. here is her photo I just took

 

[Canvas_geckos]

Here are 2 of my males (excuse the shed)

 

[Michael]

The fact that we still have no proves of diversification (if are present) , from PI animals to GT animals, is lack of DNA samples from PI.
Today is REALLY hard to make research in NewCaledonia, and PI is almost closed to any kind of fauna-related activities. Last "Thanks" for this goes to a japanes man arrested on PI with 300geckos in bags, ready for export. Autorities took down everything that was related to animals for everyones.

I still working on IGA NC expedition to reach a point of "faith" from them(autorities) to us.

Thanks for sharing all of this information - very helpful. Let us know how it goes working with the NC authorities. That could be very cool!

 

[Michael]

Ops...

M.jalu in the wild (credit to M.Deuss)

An interesting point about M. jalu: the lost and non-regenerated tail. Wasn't it said at some point that the animals from île des Pins did not regenerate their tails? So, could those animals be closer related to jalu than chahoua?

I know I cannot base that statement off just one picture, but... just a thought.

 

[Michael]

It bothers me that people find ML “ugly”. Is it just because the white PI are so trendy right now? I only have ML, and they’re pretty beautiful to me.

I agree with you. I started my journey with chahoua by keeping mainlands, and had many that were very beautiful. Towards the end, most of what I kept was Troeger line animals, and many of those are spectacular. However, it's gotten a lot harder to track down those lines over the years

 

[Andrea IGA]

An interesting point about M. jalu: the lost and non-regenerated tail. Wasn't it said at some point that the animals from île des Pins did not regenerate their tails? So, could those animals be closer related to jalu than chahoua?

I know I cannot base that statement off just one picture, but... just a thought.

M.jalu regrow back the tails

 

[TracyPD]

market and cash can F*&$OFF!
This is something more important.
This is a taxonomic, question!

Anyone who bases what they work with on whether a market crashes or not based on the discovery and discussion of information (information that of course isn't health affecting) isn't keeping and breeding the species for the right reasons.
When chahoua go back down to 3-600 dollars retail, myself and a few others that I know of will for sure still be keeping and breeding them. Don't get me wrong, money is great, but a lower ceiling opens up a new market and gives us the chance to share our enjoyment of the species with those that are deserving of it, but don't have 4000 dollars to spend on an animal with some white on it.

 

[Andrea IGA]

Anyone who bases what they work with on whether a market crashes or not based on the discovery and discussion of information (information that of course isn't health affecting) isn't keeping and breeding the species for the right reasons.
When chahoua go back down to 3-600 dollars retail, myself and a few others that I know of will for sure still be keeping and breeding them. Don't get me wrong, money is great, but a lower ceiling opens up a new market and gives us the chance to share our enjoyment of the species with those that are deserving of it, but don't have 4000 dollars to spend on an animal with some white on it.
View attachment 590

I totally agree... 3000+ for a gecko that is somehow simply white on other colours is absurd!

...so pied Uroplatus henkeli, high white U.sikorae should cost the same... But it isn't..

 

[Canvas_geckos]

I agree with you. I started my journey with chahoua by keeping mainlands, and had many that were very beautiful. Towards the end, most of what I kept was Troeger line animals, and many of those are spectacular. However, it's gotten a lot harder to track down those lines over the years

I’ve found that for some reason, lineage isn’t well documented with a lot of NC species breeders. All of my GT’s, either are lineage unknown or the parents aren’t named. Ie hatchling produced out of “mainland group A”, and there’s zero parent information on “mainland group A”. Very frustrating!

 

[Andrea IGA]

I’ve found that for some reason, lineage isn’t well documented with a lot of NC species breeders. All of my GT’s, either are lineage unknown or the parents aren’t named. Ie hatchling produced out of “mainland group A”, and there’s zero parent information on “mainland group A”. Very frustrating!

Yes, because in 99% of cases, GT animals are always labeled as "not so important", "not so cool,coloured...whites..." Because of THIS way of thinking, we are now arguing about lineages. IF, from the beginning, "pioneers" made things with a little bit of intelligence, today the problem wouldn't be present.
MOST of the "pioneers" made simply business speculations on animals, to make trends... Most of the times speaking with no scientific proves (like dogmas about long vs short snouts, big vs small eyes, pores rows count..ecc..) to sustain THEIR way of seeing things. Today, the mess around this spieces is as absurd as a paradox. There are few to none TRUE informations about 99% of the animals, but it have been the most expensive "spieces"(hybrid, or what else??..) in the hobby... silly , or not, X000+ $ for an unknown origin animal?!?!?...but in the last few years, a little bit of white, a long snout and 2 tiny eyes solved the problem.

photo > M.chahoua "Riviere Blue" (Yate) locality. First and only spiecemen recorded in that situ. credit to Mathias Deuss

 

[Michael]

I’ve found that for some reason, lineage isn’t well documented with a lot of NC species breeders. All of my GT’s, either are lineage unknown or the parents aren’t named. Ie hatchling produced out of “mainland group A”, and there’s zero parent information on “mainland group A”. Very frustrating!

I think that when the New Caledonian species were discovered and then blew up, leachianus and ciliatus got most of the attention and fanfare. As a result, little attention was paid to chahoua until it was almost too late... thus this thread now

 

[Michael]

Yes, because in 99% of cases, GT animals are always labeled as "not so important", "not so cool,coloured...whites..." Because of THIS way of thinking, we are now arguing about lineages. IF, from the beginning, "pioneers" made things with a little bit of intelligence, today the problem wouldn't be present.
MOST of the "pioneers" made simply business speculations on animals, to make trends... Most of the times speaking with no scientific proves (like dogmas about long vs short snouts, big vs small eyes, pores rows count..ecc..) to sustain THEIR way of seeing things. Today, the mess around this spieces is as absurd as a paradox. There are few to none TRUE informations about 99% of the animals, but it have been the most expensive "spieces"(hybrid, or what else??..) in the hobby... silly , or not, X000+ $ for an unknown origin animal?!?!?...but in the last few years, a little bit of white, a long snout and 2 tiny eyes solved the problem.

photo > M.chahoua "Riviere Blue" (Yate) locality. First and only spiecemen recorded in that situ. credit to Mathias Deuss

I was just having this discussion with some friends over the weekend, and one of them asked, "Are there even any white collar animals from GT?"

 

[MelissaSR]

It bothers me that people find ML “ugly”. Is it just because the white PI are so trendy right now? I only have ML, and they’re pretty beautiful to me.

I think it stems from people see the higher price tag and just assume they are the prettier locale, and couple it with poor keeping and breeding practices years ago caused them to have under bites and more buggy eyes. @Gray Sky Exotics produces some of the most vibrant GT out there, no way to call those suckers ugly.

 

[Canvas_geckos]

I totally agree... 3000+ for a gecko that is somehow simply white on other colours is absurd!

...so pied Uroplatus henkeli, high white U.sikorae should cost the same... But it isn't..

I inquired about a pastel PI fairly recently, and the price tag was five digits. Yikes. I think I’ll wait a few more years before tackling PI, as their prices are so insanely high.

 

[Canvas_geckos]

I think it stems from people see the higher price tag and just assume they are the prettier locale, and couple it with poor keeping and breeding practices years ago caused them to have under bites and more buggy eyes. @Gray Sky Exotics produces some of the most vibrant GT out there, no way to call those suckers ugly.

There are definitely some with the underbite issue. I have 2 with this that came to me like that. That being said, I have 8 others that have no underbite at all. I think that it boils down to possibly having bred the females too early and calcium issues during laying.