Line Breeding - Yes or No, Horror Stories, etc.

[Michael]

I know this is a sensitive subject, but I'm curious if anyone has any experiences or insight to share around line breeding chahoua. Years ago, I know many folks thought that all of the New Caledonian species were fairly resistant to line breeding, but I feel like those discussions were generally around ciliatus and leachianus. I've heard considerably less about Chahoua.

I'm curious how many folks have tried line breeding chahoua, and what the results were? Many people have said there is likely a high degree of at least distant line breeding happening because the number of originally imported geckos was very small. I have tracked back the lineage of all my geckos as far as I possibly can, and I've tried to avoid and crossing of related geckos just to keep my lines and genetics as fresh and vigorous as possible.

A few years ago, I remember someone saying that they tried to breed sibling chahoua - male and female from the same parents - and none of the eggs were viable. They all went bad mid-incubation so that person split them up and both geckos reproduced perfectly fine when in other (unrelated) pairings.

I also know many folks think underbites in Mainlands is because of line breeding/inbreeding, but I have my own suspicions about that and believe it's more related to calcium and diets.

 

[Dos G'Equis]

Great topic. I have not heard of any attempts, but think it would be interesting.... looking forward to everyone's ideas.
What features/ traits/assets would be the desired outcome besides color/pattern.... perhaps size/ structure?

 

[TracyPD]

In my opinion Inbreeding isn't something that's really practiced with most chahoua breeders to my knowledge. Line breeding however is whether they know they are doing it or not. Meticulous record keeping isn't something that was really done until recently, and the animals collected for the pet trade were not numerous. Yes, there's been new lines brought into the fold over the years by different means, but it hasn't been a sizeable number.
In an animal that is polymorphic to any extent that has been bred to be relatively consistent in the offspring it produces, there was most likely some degree of line breeding involved.

As for genetic underbites in Mainlands, it's definitely a thing. It took Josh years to breed out underbite in his collection and it seems every time we occasionally add in an animal from someone else's stock, underbites rear their ugly heads. From what I've seen it's not a nutritionally related occurrence for us, but I can't speak for others. Can animals develop underbite from deficiency? Of course, but it can also be a inherited.

 

[Michael]

Brian Grussing posted this on FB and I thought it would be beneficial to add here:

The original issues with mainlands stemmed from inbreeding, specifically certain breeders, who were breeding siblings together, fathers to daughters, etc.

Tim Tytles original line of mainlands were the beginning of this in the U.S., as he was unable to get any more chahoua, only further exacerbating the issues until fecundity slowed to a snails pace (if at all). Later, the most irresponsible & arguably the most reckless & heartless Rhacodactylus breeder, Mr. Spekner, insisted on breeding females at 30g, as long as the female was technically sexually mature, he would breed them. He told me he lost MANY females due to this practice. He cared more about the cash than the geckos...SAD. I even received a ~30g mainland from him, with severe & permanent lumber deformities that resulted from nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism/MBD. When i questioned him about this young female, he said "i just got eggs from her, she was fine when i boxed her up". Not a chance that gecko was "fine", & he didn't tell me about his breeding practices until after I did business with him, twice. It broke my heart. These geckos are truly sacred to me, i love them like many people love their religion. To hear him flat out admitting to force breeding the equivalent of 10-12yr old human girls, made me want to head out to CA & teach this man a lesson about suffering.

So to sum it up, as far back as i can remember, Tim Tytle started the deformity calamity in captive American Chahoua. Then Mr. Spekner made things far worse with a far worse understanding of these geckos & in particular husbandry & breeding practices. That is as best as i can sum up the issues with G.T. Chahoua in America.

I'm not adding the few German bloodlines (from Willi Henkel & friends), as they were perfectly formed. I remember mine like it was yesterday, he was mostly a beautiful green, with a subtle white collar that had clearly been taken over by the greens. I've had 2 different German line chahoua males over the years, both had perfectly formed skulls & mandibles, but were of shorter body proportions with shorter & wider heads. They were flawless geckos, NOT Pine x Mainland/Gran Terre, but "pure" German stock G.T./Mainland form chahoua.

 

[Michael]

So... underbites are something that I did a lot of research on several years ago: trying to understand how, why, with what pairings, with what animals, etc. My very first chahoua had an underbite and I got him - I think for $190 - because I'd heard so much about this species being so cool, but couldn't afford a $350 PI (thinking about those prices now is hilarious). Anyway...

Based on my personal opinion, research and experiences, I do not think there is much of a relationship between inbreeding and underbites. I think two things happened sort of concurrently that can make many folks think there is a link: misunderstanding nutrition needs while breeding mainland chahoua early on in captivity.

In the 90s, chahoua were new to collections and keepers were trying to figure out how to feed and keep them. Nobody realized how vital calcium is for their diets.... therefore, a lot of the animals were calcium crashing and laying poorly calcified eggs, which, IMO can lead to underbites. At the same time, people like Tim were breeding mainlands and feeding them this calcium deficient diet, so then we ended up with this thought that "Mainlands have underbites because they're inbred." To Brian's point, I believe breeding females too early also has a bad impact on eggs and it wouldn't surprise me if that leads to underbites as well.

By the late 90s and early 2000s when we knew more about nutrition is when the higher number of PI animals came into captive collections. Based on timing, they had the benefit of advanced keeper knowledge and a vastly better dietary understanding. So for this reason, people do not commonly associate underbites with PIs.

If you think about the low number of chahoua that have been entered into captivity at all, and if inbreeding led to underbites, I have to think most of the animals we are hatching in 2019 would look like english bulldogs.

I have another thread I'll post sometime soon about underbites, but I do not personally think it is related to inbreeding.

 

[Michael]

Underbite thread: https://moderndinosaurgeckos.com/forums/threads/understanding-underbites.96/

 

[MelissaSR]

We had discussed this years ago when the debate of ML having underbites as a genetic issue vs nutritional issue. Many years ago I went to a local universities "herp lab", almost all of their chahouas had underbites. They were claiming them all to be PI however many exhibited physical traits most associate with ML. After talking with the professor in charge of the lab I was made aware they fed baby food with some calcium mixed in, along with occasional crickets. They were being kept more like cresteds in regards of feeding, temps, and lack of UVB. I had stressed to them the importance of a more balanced diet, the profession claimed the diet they were doing was fine, and was what their animals were raised on prior to obtaining their chahoua collection. I had share my info with Michael, but at this time it was still subjective on if underbites were nutritional, or due to poor genetics. Flash forward to now, this herp lab after me and several other people stressing switching to Repashy (the only well balanced commercial diet at the time) they switched to Repashy. They now offer UVB but still feed crickets more as an in addition to CGD verse a major part of the diet like it is now recommended. Their animals are no longer exhibiting underbites in the offspring they make available. I have no idea about their breeding stock as I havent been there in many years, but I look at their babies they bring monthly to the reptile show and they no longer have underbites. Needless to say I am a firm believer in most cases the underbite is nutritional induced in some way either via directly to the animal, or via the dam in egg production.

 

[TracyPD]

I can definitely see where in some cases it could be nutritional. In my experience, it has not been.
Animals have been grown up from a small size, fed appropriately, females have laid perfect eggs and did not calcium crash at all. Babies hatched out with underbite from the pairing, grown out and homed to pet homes.

If it was purely dietary, wouldn't it be more wide spread in the collection and not just certain pairings made with added animals to the collection?
I'm not saying that diet does not play into some cases of underbite hatchlings, but from experience it's not the case in the situations that have arisen here.

 

[Michael]

I can definitely see where in some cases it could be nutritional. In my experience, it has not been.
Animals have been grown up from a small size, fed appropriately, females have laid perfect eggs and did not calcium crash at all. Babies hatched out with underbite from the pairing, grown out and homed to pet homes.

If it was purely dietary, wouldn't it be more wide spread in the collection and not just certain pairings made with added animals to the collection?
I'm not saying that diet does not play into some cases of underbite hatchlings, but from experience it's not the case in the situations that have arisen here.

Out of curiosity and if you're willing to share, what do you do with animals who have produced offspring with underbites? Move them to pet homes?

 

[TracyPD]

Out of curiosity and if you're willing to share, what do you do with animals who have produced offspring with underbites? Move them to pet homes?

Yes sir as well as all the offspring, underbite or not. And wave bye to several thousand dollars lmao. It's not something we want in our group.