Terminology: "Super High White" vs. "High White" vs. "White Collar" vs. "White Wings" vs. "Green Collar"

Michael

The Chahoua Chamber
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A few years ago on the Pangea Forums, there was a discussion about what traits made a gecko fall into one of the different "white" categories, and it's one I think is worth revisiting and sharing here. I think some of the definitions have changed a bit, mostly at the "high white" end of the spectrum because over the last decade, a number of geckos have been produced that are "super high white" - "highest white" - "whiteout"? I joke.

Anyway, these are only my thoughts and I'd love to have you guys share photos below that I can include in this original post. Feel free to challenge the definitions I've laid out below... these are accumulations of things I've seen and read, and certainly are up for debate.

"Super High White" - an animal that has a majority of it's body covered in white markings, covering most of the neck, back, base of the tail, hips and portions of the head and sides.

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"High White" - an animal that has a significant amount of white markings, covering the neck, base of the tail, and other portions of the body, including hips and sides. I think it's hard to qualify where on the neck and tail "high white" geckos have white markings because so many of the collars are so different.

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"White Collar or White Wings/Shoulders with Side White" - an animal with the white collar or white wings/shoulders noted below, in combination with at least one section of small to medium sized white on each side of the torso.

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"White Collar" - an animal that has a solid band of white going from one side of it's neck to the other with no breaks or inconsistencies.

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"White Wings/Shoulders" - an animal that has splotches of white around the neck and shoulders, likely in fragmented sections or separate areas that are not consistently white across the entire neck and/or shoulders.

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"...not white/normal" - very minimal amounts of white or none at all:

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Curveball: "Green Collar" - This is a term I've seen pop up a few times over the years and I personally think there are two ways to look at it.

One: A gecko that has a collar, but that collar has a greenish tint to it. There is some gray area here, because as animals age and between firing up and firing down, or even being somewhat fired, the tint or appearance of a collar can change a lot. But I have previously owned and seen some animals who, even when totally fired up, have green collars.
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Two: A gecko with no collar whatsoever that happens to have green color around the neck area. Translation: these geckos do not have collars of any type.
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"High White" vs. "Higher White" vs. "Highest White"?

While it's the category that most chahoua keepers strive for, I also think it might be the most ambiguous and with the largest margin for variance. ~5 years ago, many folks considered "high white" geckos to be what I described above: white on the collar, tail and body. But when you take that definition, there is a real discrepancy between geckos like these:

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45491551_2308240905884344_1570866417153081344_o.jpg

and

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The second geckos both have long streaks and blotches of white pattern, in addition to white running down their hips and tails. The top gecko, while nice, has much smaller white markings on his sides and I'm not sure I personally would call her "high white" though some have. I'd be more inclined to call him a very nice white collar... but... going back to the "definition" of high white... he would fit it.
 
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ArborealsAnonymous

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I have tons of questions, and no answers. First, I always thought of "fired down" as a gecko as pale as they get, and "fired up" as a gecko as dark as they get. Is this wrong? Second, what would you call this girl? This is the same gecko fired up and fired down (whatever you might call those lol)1011.

Third question, does this girl qualify as a white collar? I had someone try to tell me that she only qualified as a white shoulder, even though to me, her shoulders have no white and her collar, while not as wide as many, is solid. 12
 

Michael

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I have tons of questions, and no answers. First, I always thought of "fired down" as a gecko as pale as they get, and "fired up" as a gecko as dark as they get. Is this wrong? Second, what would you call this girl? This is the same gecko fired up and fired down (whatever you might call those lol)View attachment 10View attachment 11.

Third question, does this girl qualify as a white collar? I had someone try to tell me that she only qualified as a white shoulder, even though to me, her shoulders have no white and her collar, while not as wide as many, is solid. View attachment 12

I think it can vary by gecko. I have had some over the years who are dark when fired down and very light when fired up, but I think you're generally correct that most of them are pale fired down and darker when fired up. I think you make a great point though, in asking if collars should be judged in "fired up" or "fired down" form. I guess I'd consider both?

I'd say the top gecko is white shoulders? When fired down, she seems to have a nice collar, but it seems like when fired up, most of it disappears or turns green?

I'd say the bottom one is a white collar since it goes all the way across :)
 

ArborealsAnonymous

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Haha thank you! I like your answers but I had always called the top girl white collar because what turns green when she is dark is the "shoulder". I think this thread can definitely help clear up some confusion, I hope some other peeps chime in :)
 

Michael

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Haha thank you! I like your answers but I had always called the top girl white collar because what turns green when she is dark is the "shoulder". I think this thread can definitely help clear up some confusion, I hope some other peeps chime in :)

Me too, because I would love to have everyone else's perspective!
 

ELSGeckos.com

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I’d have to disagree about white collar having to be completely continuous. Reasons being one of your examples to my eye is not what I would call without inconsistencies. Also many animals have quite a bit of white but some amount of inconsistencies or a break. On the other hand, I would agree that there are many geckos with very little white and lots of breaks that are still called WC which is of course ridiculous. Her are some examples of what I would call WC but do not fit your definition here MP.
 

Michael

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I’d have to disagree about white collar having to be completely continuous. Reasons being one of your examples to my eye is not what I would call without inconsistencies. Also many animals have quite a bit of white but some amount of inconsistencies or a break. On the other hand, I would agree that there are many geckos with very little white and lots of breaks that are still called WC which is of course ridiculous. Her are some examples of what I would call WC but do not fit your definition here MP.

Hey, Jeff! I wasn't thinking that the entire collar had to be side to side without breaks, but at least some part of it. However, seeing your first pic, even though there's a break down the middle, that's definitely a gecko I'd consider to be a white collar. Great discussion points.

That second gecko is amazing :love:
 

Dragonborn Exotics (Ryan)

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This is such a juicy topic! I really like how you laid it out Michael. I would have to agree on most of that. I am on the fence about whether or not there should be a new label for "higher white" "extremely white" "whiteout" whatever one wants to label it. I would possibly apply these labels to the 2 young chahoua that you labeled as "higher white" . The White Walker X White Noise offspring. I feel like any chahoua with that much white or more may be eligable for a new label, one along the lines of what I mentioned above. How to distinguish these differences could be difficult though. Possibly the combination of a white collar, face (cheek or markings on the top of the head), tail, hips, side, legs (knee caps), and elongated, white, dorsal stripes like the 2 in your picture could classify them as a different type of "high white". Maybe they can be classified as different levels of white intensity depending on how many places on their body they exhibit noticeable white markings, with certain parts being a prerequisite. Just some ideas.
 
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Dragonborn Exotics (Ryan)

Chahoua Hatchling
Messages
89
I have tons of questions, and no answers. First, I always thought of "fired down" as a gecko as pale as they get, and "fired up" as a gecko as dark as they get. Is this wrong? Second, what would you call this girl? This is the same gecko fired up and fired down (whatever you might call those lol)View attachment 10View attachment 11.

Third question, does this girl qualify as a white collar? I had someone try to tell me that she only qualified as a white shoulder, even though to me, her shoulders have no white and her collar, while not as wide as many, is solid. View attachment 12
Top chahoua is a white shoulder (white wings) and the bottom would be a white collar I think.
 

ArborealsAnonymous

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If I had my druthers, id like to see two new categories. I would like to see "white shoulders, white neck, white collar, high white, and white out" and I think to qualify as white out at least 50% of the body should be white. I used a green shoulder adult as an example and drew what I would like to see those categories look like in application on him. Adding a category in between white shoulder and white collar would eliminate a lot of confusion in between the shoulder and collar area. 21
 

Dragonborn Exotics (Ryan)

Chahoua Hatchling
Messages
89
If I had my druthers, id like to see two new categories. I would like to see "white shoulders, white neck, white collar, high white, and white out" and I think to qualify as white out at least 50% of the body should be white. I used a green shoulder adult as an example and drew what I would like to see those categories look like in application on him. Adding a category in between white shoulder and white collar would eliminate a lot of confusion in between the shoulder and collar area. View attachment 21
I really like this idea. I think you did a great job of drawing out the examples. I agree that for a chahoua to be placed in a new category like "whiteout" , it should at least 50% white body coverage. The issue would be, how much is 50%? 50% of the gecko not including its underside? We could choose a photo of a chahoua that we think best represents the standard for the whiteout category and base other chahoua off of that.
 

ArborealsAnonymous

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Most of my chahoua have pretty much white bellies so I not think that counts lol. Honestly there are only a handful of chahoua that I would say that qualify for a new "whiteout" category, including "Astri" produced by passport herp and the few this year produced by modern dino and LAC herps. Do you know of any others?
 

Michael

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If I had my druthers, id like to see two new categories. I would like to see "white shoulders, white neck, white collar, high white, and white out" and I think to qualify as white out at least 50% of the body should be white. I used a green shoulder adult as an example and drew what I would like to see those categories look like in application on him. Adding a category in between white shoulder and white collar would eliminate a lot of confusion in between the shoulder and collar area. View attachment 21

I love this explanation!!
 
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